RE: [ihc] IH deuce and a halfs; some clarification

["Ed Sohm" <idaemes@xxxxxxxxxx>]

Do keep me informed on what you find out and feel free to correct
anything in Mac's post <g>.

I'm not too concerned what came first, the Duck or the M3-6 because to
me, neither is a Deuce so it doesn't really matter.  The M3-6 is a 3/2T
and the Duck is something amphibious that happens to carry 2.5 tons.
The are not equivalent vehicles so why would it matter which came first?
Apples and oranges.

Hey, what issue of MVM was that article I sent to you from?


Ed

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ihc@domain.elided [mailto:owner-ihc@domain.elided] On Behalf Of
Colin MM Rush
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 2:42 AM
To: ihc@domain.elided
Subject: Re: [ihc] IH deuce and a halfs; some clarification


Mac and Ed,
I evidently missed the original questions or posts, but found your
missive interesting.  I have one suggestion.  I have been in
correspondence with the Registrar of the Marine Corps about finding some
history about our club's M-5H-6, its correct markings, some
specifications, and whatnot.  I have also been talking to Carl Wiese and
Jack Campbell of Binder Books.  The president of our Oregon MVCC has one
of the M-3-4 trucks, and was talking to me about it, and I suggested
that
he call Binder Books to get a linesetting ticket on that truck so he
could learn what it came with.  Jack and Carl told me several weeks
later
that someone had recently called them about the linesetting ticket for
their military truck, which I am assuming was the same fellow.  While BB
hit and miss on being able to find the linesetting information on the
1940s trucks, both Carl and Jack me that they are completely unable to
get info on the military trucks from that same timeframe.  Evidently the
serial numbers on the military trucks do not follow the same rules as
those of the regular commercial trucks.  They told me that the customer
that placed the order (Navy or Marine Corps) has the specs and
information on those trucks.  Now, in the front of the M-5H-6 parts
book,
the serial number is referenced to an order contract number with either
the Navy or Marine Corps.  I would think that you could take the serial
number, cross-reference it to the contract number mentioned in the M-3-6
parts manual, and then contact the Registrar (or Navy analogue) with the
serial number and contract number, and have them look up to find the
date
of manufacture or delivery, and what the specs were.  If they had the
dates, you could verify which came first, the Duck or the IHC.  Since I
just myself found out yesterday where the serial number is on our truck
(middle of production, probably 1943 or 1944), I am going to forward
that
and the contract number on to them.  I do not know for a fact that it
will work, but it might be worth a try.  Let me know if you want his
e-mail address.  Just do not expect instant gratification, we have been
going back and forth for about two months now.
-Colin Rush

Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 17:59:02 -0700
From: "Mac McMuffin" <mac@domain.elided>
Subject: RE: [ihc] IH deuce and a halfs; some clarification

ahoy, one and all.  i tried to post previously, and apparently something
went wrong as my post didn't go through.  i'm giving it another go now,
so
hopefully this one finds you all well and having had a good all hallows
eve.

Ed Sohm and i have been discussing the deuce and a half issue off-digest
for
a couple days now, and we agree that some clarification and correction
on
my
part needs to be addressed.  so that's what this is for.  with a bit of
luck
this will address all the questions raised by the first post i made and
Ed's
first response to it.  i go into further detail than just the 2.5-ton
"deuce
and a half" trucks and their period, but hopefully you can bear with me
here
and maybe find this informative and helpful.

at any rate, these are the conclusions we've come to, what we believe to
be
fact, or at the very least what we have been able to find documentation
and
evidence to support. Most of this info is a result of my (Mac's)
research
into the issue (via Crismon books, several other printed references,
many
hours of internet searching).  according to most references, the last
2.5-ton tactical trucks (deuces if you prefer) IH produced for the US
military were the M-5H-6.  Production appears to have ended in 1945 with
the
end of World War II.  most but not all of these trucks went overseas
during
the war.  of those trucks remaining in US service, most went to the
Marines,
some to the Navy, and a few to the Army.  if my research is correct more
than half went to the lend-lease program in Europe, the remainder of
exported trucks saw service in the Pacific and many were left there when
the
war ended.  basically, the majority of IH-built 2.5-ton trucks
manufactured
during WWII were exported and didn't come back.  however, many remained
in
service with the US military presence in Europe and Asia through the
'50s
and perhaps into the 60s, and a number of them remained in service with
other military and civilian organizations during that period as well.
there
were quite a few of these surviving trucks in service with the US Army
during the Korean War.  so while they were no longer being manufactured,
they certainly enjoyed a relatively long service life.  it's difficult
to
find exact information on the fates of the trucks after they were
excessed,
but it appears that most of them were scrapped, so there aren't very
many
left, either overseas or here in the US.

IH is purported to have been experimenting with singles in place of
duals
on
the M41 5-ton in the '50s and early 60s, as well as some experiments in
single wheel 2.5-ton trucks at the same time, which is what my original
post
was referring to.  so far as i can tell, there are no surviving examples
of
either type of truck.  obviously they were not the first manufacturer to
experiment with single wheel applications in this period, as GMC did it
(maybe at the military's request) in the early '50s with a series of
2.5-ton
trucks (M-135 vs M-211).  within the US Military, other than the notable
exception of the GMC single wheel 2.5-ton trucks, single wheel tactical
trucks did not receive wide acceptance untill the '80s.  it is possible
that
others did also prior to that, given that it was recognized at least as
early as the early 1900s to give superior traction on soft surfaces than
duals.  however, i have found no evidence to support that any other
maker
(REO, White, Kaiser-Jeep, AMC-General, etc) built any single-wheel
trucks
in
the 2.5-ton range during this period, if ever.  note that the 2.5-ton
trucks
built by GMC are different from those built by all the other
manufacturers,
all of whom (except GMC) adhere to a mil-spec currently referred to as
the
"REO-Style" truck type.  all modern conventional 5-ton trucks are also
built
to the REO-style spec, regardless of manufacturer, and are single wheel.

additionally IH was still filling contracts for M55 (REO-style) dual
wheel
5-ton trucks in series production up through at least 1962, and these
trucks
remained in service untill sometime in the '80s, when they were excessed
and
replaced with newer trucks.  it was in this period that 2.5-ton and
5-ton
dual wheelers began to be replaced with single wheelers, in many cases
2.5-ton trucks being replaced with 5-ton trucks.  as of this writing,
there
are not very many dual wheel 5-tons still in service with the active
duty
US
Army, and even fewer conventional 2.5-ton trucks.  the IH M41 mentioned
previously is in fact a single wheel variant of the M55 dual wheeler.
the
M41 was rejected by the Army and i know of no surviving IH-built M55s
still
in service.

nowadays, the only 2.5-ton trucks the US Army is buying are cabover
trucks
from the FMTV family of vehicles.  these are a series of cabover single
wheel trucks available in various configurations.  the most notable
thing
about them is that the 2.5-ton version in standard model only has one
rear
axle and a 12-foot bed, where the 5-ton standard model in that series
has
two rear axles and a 14-foot bed.  according to the sources i've been
able
to find, the US Army no longer purchases conventional 2.5-ton trucks,
and
intends to replace the current conventional 5-tons with these new
cabover
trucks.

however, what i didn't make clear in my first post, and what i was
actually
referring to in part of it, is that IH did build some of the first (if
not
the very first) single wheel 2.5-ton trucks during World War II, known
as
the M-3-6, sold in small quantities to the Marines in 1942 and 1943.
these
trucks were originally designed and built in 1942, and i have seen no
mention of them being in production after 1943.  the GMC DUKW is also a
single wheel 2.5-ton truck, it first saw service in 1943 in Sicily, but
was
designed and probably first built sometime in 1942.  originally i was
under
the impression that the IH M-3-6 beat the DUKW into production, but i am
now
unsure that this is the case, so my claim that IH was the first single
wheel
2.5-ton tactical truck is possibly in error.  i haven't found any
specific
production start dates for either the M-3-6 or the DUKW, so i really
don't
know which entered production or was designed first.  what i do know is
that
the DUKW is designed on a standard GMC 2.5-ton dual wheel chassis.  does
it
count as a modified dual wheeler, or does it count as a ground-up
separately
designed single wheeler?  my opinion is that it's up to individual
perception.  i'm still researching to find out what the facts are,
anyway.

anyway, i think i covered everything and i hope this clears up the
issues,
and i hope i have not been too repetitive.  if there are further
questions
or i haven't been clear again, please let me know and i'll do my best to
answer any and all questions.

- --Mac

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