Re: IH pickups & revisiting lifts

[Tom Mandera <tsm1@domain.elided>]

"Joseph Michael Shaw, II" wrote:
 
> a JEEP you have to do some modification to the transfer case if you add more
> than about two inches of suspension lift.  He said that he heard that the kit
> for this cost about $600.00.  He said that the U-Joints don't compensate enough

Not sure on the price, but he's right.  It depends on WHICH Jeep, of
course... 

It's a problem of the Jeep's short wheelbase (shorter than a Scout's)
and the design, in particular, of the NV231 (Is that it?) transfer case
on the YJ (87-96 Wranglers, and the TJ 97-now) using a slip-joint on the
transfer case output, vs. a conventional Yoke and U-joint or Yoke and
CV-joint.

The kit converts the tailshaft of the transfer case to use a CV-joint
setup like it should've had from the beginning.

The YJ has a 12" long rear driveshaft.  This makes any lift make a LARGE
change in the angles involved.. while a Scout II has a 40" rear
driveshaft, which means you can lift more with less angle.

> tearing the t-case up.  Anyone have this problem on a scout?  Is this similar to
> what you are discussing, Ken?

Spring-over Scout IIs can have this sort of problem.. particularly if
you use lift springs with your spring over.  A typical 5.5 or 6"
spring-over is "at the max" for using conventional U-joints on the rear
driveshaft.. any taller, and a CV-style driveshaft is the only way to
go.  Regular U-joints won't take the abuse.

Note that the Scout II isn't crippled by the slip-tail-shaft assembly
the YJ and TJ Wranglers use.  We can get away with more lift without
drastic changes than the Jeeps can.

> I kow that both Tom and Dan have lifts on their Scout II's and was wondering if
> they had any input on this?  Any advice?

My front driveshaft is at the limit for conventional (stock) U-joints
with just my 4" lift.  Any higher, and the U-joints bind on the yokes. 
Ken had this problem at first.

This isn't a "huge" deal on Scouts for the *rear*.. but that's not where
the CV is needed first.

You can lift a Scout II 4" without changing a thing.  Go to a
spring-over, and you NEED a CV up front, and should do one in the back
at the same time.

The only "problem" with this is custom driveshafts, new yokes on the
transfer case (CV style now), and for the front, rotating the knuckles
to get the proper driveshaft angle.  On the rear, if you're doing a
spring-over, you arleady have to re-weld the spring perches on.. so it's
no big deal to change the pinion angle/driveshaft angle to get it
"right" for the CV while you're at it.

> And I guess I need to know the advantages of body over spring lifts.  And
> vice-versa.  Any tips?

Body lift only lifts the body.  Motor, frame, and other heavy stuff
stays where it is = better/lower center of gravity.  They're also cheap
and allow larger tires.

Spring lift raises EVERYTHING but the axles and tires.. which means a
higher center of gravity = easier roll over.  It also changes the amount
of articulation the tires/axles can move about (if it's not on the
ground, it's not helping you go), and changes your "break-over" angle
and clearance of the frame over a large rock.  

If you wanted to straddle a big boulder, a suspension lift would be a
better choice than a body lift.. particularly if both are coupled with
bigger tires.

IMO, if you want a Pavement Pounder (which ain't a bad thing
necessarily) to get you back n' forth to work... first, not much reason
to put bigger tires on... but.. maybe you want 'em to look cool and/or
you want to go play off-road now and then.  If that's your situation,
you are, IMO, *BETTER OFF* with a body lift.  Lower center of gravity =
better handling.  Less modification required...  Of course, your body
mounts need to be in good shape first!

If you wanna go play off-road more... depending on the *type* of
off-road, a suspension lift is a good choice.. allowing more clearance
between the frame and rocks, and more articulation of the suspension. 
Couple it with a body lift, you can run larger tires *and* twist 'em
more.

Mike - don't talk yourself up more than you really think... if we're
really talking 99% pavement, 1% dirt/rock/whatever, and your body mounts
are in good shape, do the 2" body lift.  $100 and you're done.

If it's more than 1%.. or that 1% is going to be the Rubicon or some
hard core rock crawling, shell out the $1000 it'll take to drop a
suspension lift into your truck.

But.. if it's a daily driver/commuter that won't see more than a gravel
road.. your $900 is wasted.

-Tom Mandera, Helena MT
http://www.tmcom.com/~tsm1/scout
'77 Scout II - 4" suspension lift.. getting 1" body lift, and switching
the rear to spring-over stock springs